Co-ops Building a Better World
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Co-ops Building a Better World
#4 Educating and participating for a co-operative world
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In this episode of Co-ops Building a Better World, Rebecca and Colin discuss co-operative principles number 5 (education) and 2 (democratic participation), including:
- Argentina's school co-operatives
- The Co-operative University of Kenya
- An interview with Ilana Gotz from the International Co-operative Business Education Consortium
- Democratic innovations in the co-op movement, including sociocracy and assemblies
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Hello everyone and welcome to this episode of Co-ops Building a Better World, the podcast brought to you by Co-op News. My name is Rebecca Harvey, and with me today co-hosting is Colin Talbot. Hi Colin, how are you doing?
SPEAKER_01I'm fine, thank you. It's occasionally sunny.
SPEAKER_03Does make a difference, doesn't it? It's been really dry here. But anyway. So, really quickly then, today we're going to be talking about two of the ICA cooperative principles. Principle number two, which is all about democracy, and principle number five, which is about education. So, Colin, let's start with principle five.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, uh, there's a lot about education in the current issue of the magazine. Um, I counted, I think it's five or six major articles. And about 20% of the journal. So there's quite a lot. And two of them are by somebody called Rebecca Harvey. Um both of which I thought were really interesting. One's about schools in Argentina, and the other's about a university in Kenya, which I being as a university person found fascinating. So, should we kick off with the schools in Argentina and tell us a bit about it?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, absolutely. I mean, Argentina is a fascinating country because, like a lot of uh countries in on the continent, cooperatives are such a huge part of daily life. People understand what co-ops are. And this year, Argentina in particular is celebrating 80 years of Cooperativas Escolares, which are the schools' cooperatives. And these are a way of learning that was formally set up in 1946 as a way of embedding the teaching and the practice of cooperation, particularly in a school's setting. So in these schools, it's not just an extracurricular activity, although it is uh completely voluntary if you want to take part. But it's it's a bit like writing an essay in English or drawing a picture in art. You set up a cooperative. It's just a part of the pedagogy, which is forms you know an inherent part of learning in schools in Argentina. What I really love about this is that it it they are encouraged to take part in these cooperatives from a really, really young age. One of my favorite facts about these cooperatives is the fact that students of any age can participate, but you have to be at least 10 to serve on the board, which I think is absolutely wonderful. And what's also really great is that teachers are involved, but they can so they can veto some decisions, but they're mostly there to guide and to link these cooperative projects to the to the learning, to different subject lessons, to um to what's going on in in the wider society. And and the idea of these co-ops is not just to teach about co-ops, although that is a big part of it, but teaching how to cooperate, how to collaborate, how to work democratically together to solve a problem. So for this, for this article, I listened to an interview with Eva Fernandez. Um she's the Deputy Director of Community Participation in the Culture and Education Department of Buenos Aires Project um province. And this interview was on Argentina's R10 radio, and we do quote some of it in the article. But in particular, she talks about how real transformations happen from projects that commit students to feeling part of something, creating something and having collective and solidarity projects. And she talks about how the students really value this learning to work as a team. And one thing she said that really stood out is how a student who may feel apathetic, who didn't feel enthusiastic about school, finds through the cooperative, a place to feel part of, to feel happy, to be able to learn through this practice. Um, and these cooperatives that the students set up vary hugely. So they could be a healthy tuck shop, or they could be a gardening initiative, or they could be a pasta and pizza, you know, cookery demonstration. They could build benches or they could install wheelchair ramps. So it's the students who decide this, along with the teachers who link it to the lessons, which I think is just absolutely fantastic.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, no, I think that form of education, which I've used a lot in higher education, of trying to link practice and theory stuff together, it's it's really important. The one thing that's that I did catch from that article was that um if you just go back to the early cooperative movement in the UK and the importance of education, at that stage it was very much cooperatives providing general education to people who didn't have access to it. And there was an element of that I thought in the Argentine article that they were picking out some of the state failure where it where it wasn't actually providing or people weren't participating in education. Is that correct?
SPEAKER_03It is partly correct. Yeah, so that there are actually two types of schools cooperatives in Argentina. So there's the cooperative set up within the school setting, and then there are schools that are set up as cooperative schools, uh, which as you said address some of the state failures. So they are slightly different, but both equally valid.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, no, that's interesting. Should we go on to the university? Because I thought uh that was particularly something for me as a former university professor.
SPEAKER_03Um yeah, absolutely. I mean, Kenya itself is another country where cooperatives are rife and and it's it's brilliant. So Kenya itself has a population of 53, just over 53 million, and it has over 22,000 registered cooperative societies with over 14 million members. Um, the stat that I really like about cooperatives in Kenya is they they um contribute about 45% of Kenya's GDP. So they're they're a big business. And I think this is reflected in this um issue of co-op news, actually, because the the story we ran on the cooperative university of Kenya is actually one of four stories we ran on the country, this issue. So we talked about savings and credit co-ops, we talked about the restructure of the co-op bank of Kenya, and we also talked about um tea and coffee co-ops joining a campaign to stop child labour in the supply chain, which is part of a wider, wider national effort. But for the university uh sorry, for the university piece, I got to speak to Professor Kaman Gamao, who's the vice-chancellor of the cooperative university of Kenya. And I asked him what cooperative education means to him. And I I really enjoyed his answer because he said it's for him, it's an integrated learning model. I really like that idea of being integrated. So an integrated learning model that deliberately combines academic instruction with practical work-based experience, often within co-op enterprises or community-based economic structures. So today the university teaches about 8,000 students, and the the level of education varies from diplomas and undergraduate to both postgraduate and professional development courses. But for him, what really struck me was when he was talking about it, he talked about it's a it's a vision to have cooperative education become a mainstream pillar of education systems and to have this socioeconomic transformation of both people, both locally and globally. And similar to what uh how was happening in Argentina, it's very much linking the cooperative practice within the education setting to the outside world. So in Argentina, it was about making sure that you know young children and older children are prepared to be citizens of the country and of the world. Whereas at the university, it's also about preparing students for the changing world of work. And this world is changing. And in particular, he was talking about the environmental changes or the impacts that environmental changes will have on the world of work and also the impact of technology and how both of these are going to underpin huge changes for career paths for their students. And what one of the other things he said was how COP education is already intersecting with digital innovation, green economics, and social enterprises and will become a critical model for addressing 21st centuries, uh century challenges. So, one of the things similar to the Argentina schools is that the university pushes student participating, sorry, student participation in designing and managing corporative projects within the university setting and then linking up with cult businesses outside the university too.
SPEAKER_01That's really interesting. Uh, my old business school, Manchester Business School, was actually founded in the 1960s on what were called action learning principles, um, which is about combining practical projects with the the sort of classroom teaching bit of what what we did. Um and and they still do actually, they run uh quite a lot of four MBA students have to form a consortium, which is actually like a mini cooperative um uh and they give advice to not-for-profit organisations, mostly in the Manchester area. So, and I've supervised two or three of them. There was one with a D mining charity that's based in Manchester, which is really interesting.
SPEAKER_03Let's stick with kind of university business education as well, then, because I know last or a few weeks ago, Colin, you spoke with Alana Gutz, who's the project manager at Euryxie, which is the European Research Institute on Corporative and Social Enterprises. But she's also the Global Secretariat of the International Cooperative Business Education Consortium.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, absolutely. There's about 25 business schools on covering most continents, uh which doesn't sound like a lot, but it's the start uh of business schools that are doing uh cooperative education. Um in quite active in North America and some parts of Europe, for example, Italy, for example. Um, and what they're trying to do is is to try and uh form a core of people who are active in this area. So we I recorded an interview with Ilana, which we're going to play now. I'd like to welcome to our cooperative news podcast, Ilana Gotz, who's from ICBEC, which focuses on business education for cooperatives. So, but I'll leave Ilana to introduce it.
SPEAKER_00Thank you so much, Colin, and thank you for having me. Um, it's a pleasure. So, yeah, um, here we're talking about education, cooperative business education. ICBEC is um the international cooperative business education consortium. We are a network of um educators, researchers, supporters, people interested in cooperative business education from all around the world. Um, and uh we've been operating for a few years now, and our main purpose is to um to bring together those people working in cooperative business education to help um network, share experiences, compare notes like like teachers um want to do, and um and really make sure that we're all um aware of what's going on in the education sphere and doing the best we can to bring cooperative business education to um cooperatives around the world.
SPEAKER_01That's great. Uh as somebody who spent most of my higher education education career in business schools, I know how little cooperative education there is, certainly in Britain. Uh I know some other countries do it a bit better than us, but uh I've been looking around recently, and there's 120 business schools in Britain. And as far as I'm aware, only about two or three of them at most do anything at all about cooperatives.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, the fragmentation and the lack of cooperative business education in many business schools is certainly one of the reasons um why a network like ICBEC is uh is useful. So we have um a core group of 25 members. We're housed at uh St. Mary's in Canada, and I am actually um my work is through Eurixe, a research center in Trento, Italy. Um, we focus on social economy, on cooperative social enterprises, associations, foundations, and um are also a training uh organization. And so we are we've been one of the members since the beginning, and we provide the secretariat for the ICBEC network, myself and my colleague Maria Mourillo. Um, but we um have members from all around the world. Some of the activities that uh we focus on our areas of work is really about trying to make sure that we um stay in touch with one another and um have an idea about what kinds of programs exist around the world. You know, it could be that somebody comes to me, but it's not what we do, and so then I know uh where I can refer that person. Um, also to do collaborative initiatives. Uh, we have a repository of resources and case studies that um is being offered through the Portel Co-op at um HEC Montreal. So that's a really exciting opportunity. And yeah, I mean, I it's really about sharing and building those connections around the world.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think that's obviously necessary. Um one other thing I have noticed is there's been a bit of a surge in publications over the last decade or so uh about cooperatives, quite a lot of books, um, which my shelves are filling up with quite rapidly, trying to keep up with. I mean, maybe you should say something more about the the membership, how how broad it is.
SPEAKER_00Sure. Um, so here's a a map of um the core members. So we have the membership structure um is basically you can be a member if you are contributing either financially or through your activities and your participation in the ICBEC network, but um, it's not limited to organizations. We also welcome individual uh teachers, professors, researchers, and we have a much broader um list of people who are sort of in our mailing list and network who receive our information. Um, but we're well aware that not every institution is able to contribute financially. So um, but these are the the core members, the ones that really are uh contributing either economically or by by participation and in kind. And as you can see, they're really all around the world. Um, so it's it's very exciting to have a network like this, and we're constantly building, um, building new connections. So anyone who's interested is welcome to to reach out.
SPEAKER_01I think the point about individuals being able to join in is really important because in my experience, it in a lot of cases, it's only two or three individuals in a business school or other part of a university that might be interested in that like a co-ops or the social economy. I wonder if you could just expand a bit on the sort of activities the network gets up to, because I gather you have various sorts of activities.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, absolutely. Um, so I mean, some of the basic activities are um, you know, we have our meetings, our plenaries, and um regional meetings so that people can get to know each other, talk to one another, especially, you know, as you mentioned, um, individuals they might feel kind of alone in their research or their work or their teaching. And so um, you know, one of the key activities is really just connecting people to one another. Um, but we're also uh working towards um more collaborative initiatives. So right now we have a case study initiative going on that um is being headed by uh University of Saskatchewan, the cooperative uh center in University of Saskatchewan. We're working together with Ivy Publishing to make business case studies available to both those who are looking for cooperative business case studies, but also those who might just be looking for a case study on governance or participation or management or whatever it might be, and then happen upon a cooperative, um, opening the door to teaching about cooperatives where maybe they weren't going to initially. So um it's really about providing um materials for those who are already teaching about cooperatives, but also trying, you know, as we're we're constantly talking about, and you and I have talked about in the past, that lack of um teaching of the cooperative business model in business schools and in other programs. So um that's an initiative that we're doing across the entire ICBEC network. And part of that is also teaching about how to write a good case study, how to get a case study published. Um, these kinds of we're talking with the um ICA, the International Cooperative Alliance, uh, Asia Pacific office about doing a case study competition, for example. So um a whole lot of work around that. Um, and then we we interact with um other networks as well. We're involved with the the ICA and the research network, the MS network in Europe and and others, really just trying to make sure that people who want to be teaching about cooperative business have the resources to do it, they um can you know find materials and then also are sharing what's going on.
SPEAKER_01That's all fantastically useful. Thanks very much. Uh dare I say educational. I'm sure quite a few people will find that particularly useful. Uh and I hope I'll be able to participate in some of the things you're doing. By the way, the two things about the magazine. One is uh in the last issue, I I did a review of uh the book by Bruno Rolandz on workers' cooperatives that's just come out, which has got a lot of case studies in it, which is is quite useful. And the other is that this my issue of the magazine is is heavily focused around educational issues, so people might find that particularly useful. But thanks very much for joining us today.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely, thank you so much. And here, if uh folks can see it, is our contact information. And we we're on LinkedIn, we have a web page, we have a Lumio community, which Lumio, if you don't know it, it's a cooperative platform, and um you can join the conversation there. So thank you.
SPEAKER_01Brilliant, thanks very much, Alara. That that was that was very interesting. Uh, I think what's important is something I'm actually talking about tomorrow at the UK Society for cooperative studies conference, is the the lack of cooperative education in business schools generally. I mean, we've got 120 business schools in the UK, and virtually none of them do any cooperative education at all, even in Manchester, which is the home of cooperation.
SPEAKER_03If you're enjoying this podcast, why not consider becoming a member of Co-op News? Okay, as well as writing and talking about co-ops. We are a multi-stakeholder cooperative ourselves. For individual membership, visit thenews.coop forward slash membership. Or if your organization would like to become a direct member, email membership at theniws.coop to find out more about joining the heart of the co-op conversation. Okay, let's move on to principle number two now. So democratic participation. So we're recording this on Friday, the 8th of May, and yesterday in the UK there are a lot of local elections. And democratic participation is a core co-op principle.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I've been recently reading the guidance notes produced by the International Cooperative Alliance, and there's quite an extensive note about what they mean by principle two. Um, and it actually mentions some democratic innovations which are uh very popular in political democracy, um, but less so I think inside the cooperative movement. Um we're gonna go on to talk about some of that now with Alice.
SPEAKER_03So joining us today, we have a very special guest, and that is Alice Tuma McAlpine, who is a co-op news journalist who actually is also the fantastic person who edits the podcast. So, Alice, thank you so much for all your work on this so far. Um, meanwhile, you've written quite a lot about different forms of democratic participation for co-op news. So, what are some of these different forms that have really stood out for you?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so um obviously it's just you know really fascinating that there is so many different types of democracy that happen within co-ops and that they are, you know, inherently democratic um organisations. And um, yeah, I've been quite interested in this. So um uh one of the stories that I wrote a while back was about uh sociocracy, which uh some listeners or viewers might be familiar with. So, sociocracy, for those who don't know, is it's a it's a form of organizing work, really, um, but in a in a democratic way. Um so I spoke to an organization called Sociocracy for All, who are based in the US, and um they talk about sociocracy as being um it's not non-hierarchical, but they talk about it being a hierarchy of work rather than power. And so there are, you can go as deep as you want into sociocracy. So um the way that it works in a kind of nutshell is that uh sociocratic organizations are made up of working groups called circles. And the idea is that these circles are semi-autonomous, so they uh get the jobs done that they need to get done, but they're always in constant communication with each other. Um, so a lot of it is about kind of trying to devolve and decentralize decision making to the people that are actually doing the work. Um, so it's a really interesting innovation, and um, it's it's been taken on by quite a lot of Co-ops, um, quite a few worker co-ops and uh housing co-ops as well. Um, one of the most notable examples that we spoke to in the story that I wrote was uh Unicorn Grocery in Manchester. Um, and they started uh thinking about sociocracy as they were growing. So they got to the point where I think they had about maybe like 70 worker members, and the working groups that they were already using were starting to get a little bit unwieldy. So they were having kind of group meetings with like 20 people in, uh, for example, their deli working group or their vegetables working group, and they decided that they needed something that had a bit more structure to kind of facilitate um the values of collective decision making. Um, so they've been working with sociocracy for a while now, and um it seems to be quite a valuable tool. Um, but as I said, it's something that you can go into a lot of detail with, or you can just kind of try and apply the principles. Um, so that's one kind of interesting thing that I've seen in you know quite a few worker co-ops and maybe like co-ops on the smaller side. Um, another thing that I found quite interesting was um in the kind of community area of co-ops um is this idea of assemblies. Um, and this is something that I've been learning about for the past few months in various different areas of my life. Um, but I attended a conference um last year called uh The World Transformed. And at that conference, there was a session run by an organization called Cooperation North, and they are kind of a network of cooperative networks. Um and they uh hosted an event that was about local assemblies, community assemblies at this conference, and it was hosted by Cooperation Manchester, Cooperation Hall, and Cooperation Sheffield, and they kind of took us through the process of how to run a local assembly, which is really about people in a community coming together to make decisions, plan action, take action together, and sometimes pool resources. And that's a key organizing tool that that those organizations use.
SPEAKER_03So Corporation North, Corporation Hull, Corporation Manchester, are they inspired by Corporation Jackson in the USA at all?
SPEAKER_02Yes, they are. So um Cooperation Jackson, for those who don't know, is a cooperative network in Jackson, Mississippi. Um, and it consists of um four interconnected institutions that they are like actively trying to build now. So the first one is a federation of local worker co-ops, the next one is a cooperative incubator, the next one is a cooperative education and training centre, and then also a cooperative bank or some kind of financial institution. So they're really trying to create a new society essentially in the area that they're working in. And they've they've inspired, you know, lots of other organizations to go on and do similar things. And yeah, that includes um Cooperation North and the organizations that are part of that. And um Corporation Jackson, yeah, also promotes assemblies um as um yeah, a key instrument in their organizing model. And um Calia Kuno, who's one of the co-founders of um Corporation Jackson, has written about uh people's assemblies and um they talk about the two functions that assemblies can have. So the first one is around enabling community members to organize social projects together. Um, so that could, you know, be things like community gardens or um yeah, housing projects or workers' unions. And then so that this is really um, they say, you know, this kind of helps people to come together to create survival programs, essentially. So they're supporting each other. But the other function that assemblies can have is to apply pressure on governments um through things like organizing campaigns, direct action, um, boycotts and things like that. So uh they've got this kind of dual function in the eyes of um Cooperation Jackson. Um and yeah, it's really interesting to see how assemblies are showing up in the co-op movement because it's something that I've been uh yeah learning about recently.
SPEAKER_03Because outside of outside of co-op news, Alice, I know you also work with a humanity project, which supports organizations to run assemblies in their own communities. So could you tell us a little bit more about that as well?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so Humanity Project uh is a national uh project uh in the UK, and our aim is really to seed and nurture assembly culture um in the country. So we want to see assemblies as being you know part of people's day-to-day lives, really. Um, and when we talk about assemblies, we're talking about spaces where uh people in communities can come together to deliberate, uh, develop relations with each other and build power while making decisions and taking action together. And that word deliberation is quite important because it's about um something that's a bit different to uh just casting a vote or being consulted or debating where there's a right answer that you're trying to get you know through above everyone else. Um the process of deliberation that Humanity Projects and lots of us others that are working in this space um are you know trying to promote is it's a process where you actually start with the lived experience of of an issue. So, you know, you get people around a table, preferably in a circle, to share their experiences and build on um that kind of human connection element to get to the point where you can actually make decisions together as a collective. So it's it's quite um different to you know the mainstream forms of democracy that we have at the moment. So it it feels like a bit of a departure, but um, there are, you know, there's a long history of this kind of collaborative, um, more um yeah, deliberative forms of democracy in you know all over the world. Um I did want to share one story from Humanity Project. Um the most recent assembly actually that happened with a humanity project partner was actually run by a co-op called uh Marsh Farm Outreach.
SPEAKER_03And they were You can't you can't get rid of Covs, they pop up everywhere, don't they?
SPEAKER_02I know. Yeah. Um so yeah, so they work on a um on an estate called Marsh Farm in Luton, and they held their first assembly um just in the past few weeks, and uh they had over 150 residents attend. Um, and these residents came together in this way that I've just described to deliberate on the question of their local environment and what needs to happen to make the streets cleaner and community spaces better for the people of Marsh Farm. And also, crucially, how do we make it happen together? Um, so that event led to three recommendations, one of which was to bring back the local market. And since the assembly, the council have actually agreed to back the proposal and are now working to reinstate the license. So there's a real concrete outcome that's already come from this assembly. But what's also happened is within that event, working groups were created to take some of the other recommendations forward. So the next assembly that they have later in the year, there's going to be something to build on, and that work can be reviewed and um built on, and more people can get involved. So the idea of these assemblies is that it's an ongoing process that builds power in communities over time, um, as opposed to just one thing that happens and then and then it's done. It's definitely something that, you know, should build over time. So I thought that was a really exciting example, and the fact that they're a co-op just, you know, shows that there's so much kind of overlap in this uh in this work.
SPEAKER_03I think another way that that actually links to the last issue of co-op news as well, is because am I right in saying Marsh Farm has got funding from Pride in Place?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so um yeah, the area that Marsh Farm operates in is one of the Pride in Place areas. So that's obviously like you know a massive um like draw for people to come and engage in that process is knowing that there are actually going to be some you know resources available in this area.
SPEAKER_03So for those who don't know, the UK's um Pride and Prace initiative is a is a government program that's gonna be see up to five billion pounds given to nearly 250 areas across the UK. Uh and actually in the article that we we ran in Co-op News, the question uh posed by our colleague Miles was how do you give away power and how do you actually involve communities? So it sounds like Marsh Farm have actually done this through assemblies.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, definitely. Um I thought that that um story on Pride Pride in Place was really interesting as well. Um, and um the fact that you know co-ops have been playing a part in um looking at the different ways that we can involve people in these kinds of processes, I think is really exciting. I saw a quote from Francis Northrop saying that you know this this scheme, Pride in Place, should be seen as a project to give economic power to communities. And so um the co-op movement obviously has a big role to play there. And um, yeah, Marsh Farm is an example of one of these co-ops that is is involved in this process.
SPEAKER_03So Francis Northrop is head of community economic power at the New Economics Foundation. And what we also learnt in the article is actually Co-ops UK, so it's the UK Federation for Co-ops, is represented on the Pride and Place Expert Reference Panel and is uh working to ensure that communities are involved by creating things like toolkits, which is yeah, super helpful. I understand Humanity Project has also got an event coming up in Manchester, Alice.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so as part of the work that I'm doing in Greater Manchester um with Humanity Project, we're working with uh lots of different organisations across Greater Manchester to try out this assembly model. Um, but we're also part of a coalition in Greater Manchester of organisations that are working um around this space of assemblies. And this consists of Humanity Project and also the Sortition Foundation, who are campaigning for a permanent Greater Manchester level Citizens' Assembly, and also Corporation Manchester, who I mentioned earlier. So we're holding an event on the 21st of May in Manchester City Centre, which is a little bit off the back of the local elections that have just happened, um, kind of looking at uh what next really, and you know, how can we uh look at different forms of deeper democracy beyond elections? You know, elections obviously it's important to get out and vote, but what can we do beyond that? So um, so yes, so we'll be holding that event on the 21st of May.
SPEAKER_01I all of that is fantastically interesting, Alice. And uh I I there's there's something going on here which I think is is uh new, which is the cross-fertilisation between developments in political democracy and developments on uh uh cooperative democracy. Um one of the stories that caught my eye, which we haven't covered in the magazine yet, which I think we probably ought to, is that Democracy Next, which is a uh uh an outfit which promotes some of the forms of political democracy that you're talking about in terms of communities and so on, has teamed up with the Mondragon Corporation in the Basque country, um, and are launching a project to look at incorporating into all the corpses that are part of Mondragon uh new forms of participation, new forms of direct democracy, and new forms of deliberation. Uh and that project, which has only just got underway last year, um, I think is something we probably want to go back to. Uh and I I digging into that recently, I I came across uh a fascinating paper written uh about 10 years ago for something called the Power Commission in the UK about 57 varieties of democratic innovation. Uh, for those who don't get the reference, there was always said to be 57 varieties of different baked beans in the UK. Um this paper by Graeme Smith at uh Westminster University in London um identified a whole load of new initiatives aimed at supplementing representative democracy, which was generally seen as being weakened uh in recent years and falling out of favour with a lot of population of only having a vote once every four or five years. Uh, and that was your only engagement with policy making and the occasional consultation. Um Graham's also written that up into an interesting book on democratic innovations. And I think there's an interesting crossover starting to happen here of these types of innovations, which started off in political democracy mostly uh in North America and Europe, uh going over into uh community democracy and cooperative democracy and the social and solidarity economy. And I think that's going to be something to look out for in the future.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that's fascinating, Colin. And actually, it's great to see some of these uh discussions percolating within the co-op movement because I know we've talked about before about there are some fantastic uh examples of like data analysis and now democratic participation happening outside of co-ops that actually should be used as a tool within within the wider cooperative movement. And actually, if there's anybody out there with interesting examples of participatory democracy within your own co-op or other stories that you've heard of, get in touch, let us know. You can email us directly at editorial at the news.coop. Meanwhile, thank you very much for listening to the latest edition of Co op's building a better world. Have a lovely week. We'll see you next month, and meanwhile, keep on cooperating.